Posts by Cold Steel

64

Look, Up in the Air...It's a Bird, it's a Plane...No, It's a JW!!

by Cold Steel in

for you ex-jehovahs witnesses...and even you current ones...have you ever contemplated your future existence in paradise earth, should you be fortunate enough to end up there?

during those raucous, fun moments at the kingdom hall when you were contemplating eternity and having the times of your lives...did you ever speculate about what life would be like?

for example, would you have to walk everywhere or would you be able to fly around like superman?

Cold Steel

Hey, I’m just asking a good natured question! But, if you’d rather talk about Mormons, planets and underwear!

Mormons do believe in theosis, as do the Greek Orthodox. As far as having one’s own planet? I think galaxy or universe would be more accurate. If this universe is just one of billions, then is it run by just one being we call “God”? What if God is a collective, as is the word “Elohim”? Or the word “family”? Or “quorum”?

“Man has become as one of us,” God said in Genesis. What’s this “us” business? If Jesus is God, and the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, then there are three Gods as part of the collective. Each is separate, distinct, capable of speaking to one another. As one early churchman said, “Cattle beget cattle, horses beget horses, and we call ourselves the ‘Children of God.’” So what does a God beget? Theosis or deification is not a new doctrine nor is it a unique Mormon doctrine. Neither the Greek Orthodox or the Mormons state we will have a planet.

And how about our “magic underwear”? That’s not new, either. In ancient temple rites and practices, holy priesthood garments are commanded of God. (See Exodus 28 and this article, Sacred Vestments.) And our underwear have a rich tradition in religious history and theology.

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Hmmm. How do you suppose Joseph Smith knew about all this? He didn't get it from ancient sources, but through revelation.

40

Have You Ever Met...Or KNOW...a GB Member?

by Cold Steel in

if so, what is your experience?

i've seen only a few talks by gb members and would like to hear what they're like.

are they personable, aloof, humble, arrogant?

Cold Steel

If so, what is your experience? I've seen only a few talks by GB members and would like to hear what they're like. Are they personable, aloof, humble, arrogant?

When they visit Kingdom Halls, do they do any Pioneer work, and do members usually put them up overnight, feed them, etc.?

How are they usually treated? Do people fawn over them? Do they only socialize with each other or do they have friendships outside of the Governing Body? Are they considered on the same level as other anointed class members as far as their future is concerned or do they occupy a place between anointed and apostolic?

Just curious.

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64

Look, Up in the Air...It's a Bird, it's a Plane...No, It's a JW!!

by Cold Steel in

for you ex-jehovahs witnesses...and even you current ones...have you ever contemplated your future existence in paradise earth, should you be fortunate enough to end up there?

during those raucous, fun moments at the kingdom hall when you were contemplating eternity and having the times of your lives...did you ever speculate about what life would be like?

for example, would you have to walk everywhere or would you be able to fly around like superman?

Cold Steel

For you ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses...and even you current ones...have you ever contemplated your future existence in Paradise Earth, should you be fortunate enough to end up there? During those raucous, fun moments at the Kingdom Hall when you were contemplating eternity and having the times of your lives...did you ever speculate about what life would be like? What you would be able to do?

For example, would you have to walk everywhere or would you be able to fly around like Superman? Would you be able to streak into the ethereal heights, then plummet to the ground at breakneck speed only to swoop up at the last minute, sending earth and rocks into the air behind you? Or would you be able to have a portal in your home, where you could think of anywhere in the Universe and be able to visit it by simply stepping through?

And for those who end up as part of the heavenly, anointed group, what did you see them being able to do? Would they be able to visit Paradise Earth, assume physical bodies and visit with those of the “great crowd”? And what will be their purpose, really? God already has angels and if Earth is really a Paradise, it’s not likely to need governing, laws, courts or, thank goodness, attorneys! Anyway, I’ll bet they’ll be able to hit some high speeds being spirits and all. If family members end up in both groups, I trust there will be some sort of social visits.

So did any of these things come up? And how will houses and other structures be built in Paradise Earth? If people can levitate themselves and large, heavy objects like granite columns and such, it might be pretty cool. And instead of going snorkeling around corral reefs, think about how swift it would be to check out the Marianas Trench. While jet airliners usually fly up around the 3-mile high distance, the trench is a whopping 6.8 miles deep at Challenger Deep. But for resurrected beings, it ought to be a quick dip! (Just bring your flippers.)

While being resurrected may provide for some adrenaline highs, that’s assuming we have adrenaline.

So what was, or is, your take? Any chance people could graduate from being physical beings to being spiritual beings? What do the GP members say about Life After Armageddon?
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15

Did Jesus abolish the temple priesthood at his death????

by Crazyguy in

if so or he did at anytime before or after his death please if you can provide scriptures.

i may need these for ammo when two elders come to my home this week.

thanks.

Cold Steel

Based on Dr. Barker's book, referenced above, dismissing the need of the temple altogether may be a bit premature. The ancient Jews suffered from the same malady that the Jehovah's Witnesses now suffer from. Some of the more political, zealous Jews and Christians were convinced that the day of deliverance was nigh when the Romans attacked Jerusalem. Although the apostles had evacuated the Christians under their influence, some of the more radical ones who believed that God would not abandon his people and his temple remained. According to Barker, when the Romans began lobbing perfect white stones over the city's embankments, the recalitrant Jews thought the stones were the supernatural hail that was to precede the presence of God. At first they shouted, "The Son is coming!" But when God failed to make his appearance, they actually hurled insults at the Lord because he delayed his coming.

She writes:

Thus, they were insulting God, himself, the great Yhwh. Not the Father, but the Son. They knew the concept of Armageddon, and that it would occur during an assault against Jerusalem by an unholy military force. Like the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, they couldn't believe that what they had promised would happen wasn't happening.

But were the Christians finished with the temple? What of the 40 days Jesus had spent with the apostles following his resurrection? He taught them the "mysteries" of the Kingdom, a secret tradition that Barker indicates was never written down. Again, according to Barker:

And she indicates that part of this secret tradition may have found its way into the early liturgies of the Christian church. The problem, as I see it, is that by then the apostles were gone and no one else really knew for certain which of all the alleged teachings were real and which were not. But churchmen like Clement knew enough, apparently, that he marvelled how anyone could be an atheist after they "learned the divine mysteries" from the Father's "only begotten Son." In describing the reestablishment of the churches in Constantine's time, Eusebius, she notes, describes their reestablishment to:

That "unbroken tradition" in the temple concept indicated that the early Christians and Jews both incorporated "secret traditions" into their temple worship, and that some may have slipped into the liturgies of the early Christian church.

Much in the ancient church was lost when the apostles closed their eyes in death. What we have now is what was agreed upon by people who weren't there when these doctrines and traditions were established.

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23

False Prophecy Part 3 With A Jehovahs Witness Elder

by Watchtower-Free in

jw: they are not.. kw: but if they were, would you want to know?.

jw: they are not.. kw: im not saying they are.

jw: no.. kw: really?

Cold Steel

Island Man: Steer the conversation to Deuteronomy 18:21,22 and get him to go to the Reasoning Book section on False Prophets.

Although it's a good idea, if one looks carefully at what happened, the Governing Body never actually prophesied that the end would come by then. They implied it, but they always gave themselves a little wiggle room, or escape. It's there between the lines.

“If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. Of the generation that observed the beginning of the “last days” in 1914, Jesus foretold: “This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.”-Matt. 24:34. Therefore*, as a young person, you will never fulfill any career that this system offers. If you are in highschool and thinking about a college education, it means at least four, perhaps even six or eight more years to graduate into a specialized career. But where will this system of things be by that time? It will be well on the way toward its finish, if not actually gone!

Awake! 1969 May 22 p.15.”

*For that reason

By some deft and judicious editing, the Watchtower writer, whoever he is, manages to formulate the prediction, not as prophesy, but as reasoning. He also puts everything on the shoulders of Jesus. But the 1914 date is fiction. If not, then Jesus missed the mark, not the GB. After all, he said it! But if one reads Matthew 24, the GB isn't guilty of false prophecy, but bad exegesis. And while that's bad enough, it isn't the same as prophecy, which needs no explanations or apologies. A prophecy, after all, can stand on its own. That's not what's happening here.

23

False Prophecy Part 3 With A Jehovahs Witness Elder

by Watchtower-Free in

jw: they are not.. kw: but if they were, would you want to know?.

jw: they are not.. kw: im not saying they are.

jw: no.. kw: really?

Cold Steel

This is a fascinating exchange, but the Bible verse where Jesus said no man knows the time or the date was written, what? Two thousand years ago? That doesn't mean that no one knows today (though no one does). A person can say, I don't know when it will happen, but within ten years it will happen. Then it becomes a false prophecy, right? Especially when it adversely affects your adherents.

What upsets me about the exchange is that this Witness is doing the same thing to his kids that the JWs in the early 70s were doing to their children...and themselves.

The JW teacher is so determined that the Watchtower is NOT a false prophet that he can't get the points. What's the purpose of the Governing Body? To give spiritual meat to the household and to oversee the Master's holdings. How good of a job have they done? Well, they've led their followers into financial bondage and provided a morose environment for them. No one could fault them if they were constantly counseling caution and rejoicing when God gives them additional time. Instead, they whip everyone into a frenzy and then turn around and blame it on them! It's like a bunch of children.

As CEOs, these guys are always watching the bottom line. They realize that there's no future in a future! So they have to constantly tell people there is no future so they will give up what they would ordinarily need if there was a future. The problem, of course, is that when the future comes along, the grasshoppers have nothing while the ants are living normal and productive lives. And many of the ants are religious. Eventually the honest JW has to ask himself, am I better off having listened to those I thought were God's servants, or am I worse off? Has the Governing Body helped establish God's kingdom, or have they set up a counterfeit, in which they have presumed authority they were never given? In the past, those who came in God's name came in power and authority. To be a faithful and wise servant, shouldn't one first be appointed? Shouldn't what they say come to pass?

William Miller was the first in this entire movement to leave people in financial ruin and harnessed by false expectations. He left people on hilltops and rooftops to meet the coming Christ, and when it failed to happen, he said he had miscalculated. And that line of leadership has never changed and it's results have been depressingly the same all the way to the present. In fact, if you remove Armegeddon from the denomination's theology, it's nothing. Everything is centered on that one aspect of prophecy, and nothing more.

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27

What Are The Expectations...Now??

by Cold Steel in

the society has been teaching that you-know-what is right around the corner for so long that it's lost all credibility.

what are the expecations like now?

do people still expect it to happen very soon, or are more people planning on things like higher education?

Cold Steel

There are many Christians who feel tribulations are coming in the last days. The "pre-tribbers" believe they will be "caught up" to meet Christ before the tribulation, thus getting them off the hooks. The JWs believe that the tribulations will be quick and that they will be the only ones who survive. I think one of the reasons TV shows like THE WALKING DEAD are so popular is that it touches a fear that tribulations will come and there will be no escape...no relief...and that it will be every man for himself.

There's no Biblical evidence that Jesus will catch all the believers up to heaven before the tribulation. Only when the Lord returns will that happen. If tough times do come when there are catastrophies, what will the Governing Body be able to do? When the Romans swept down on the Jews, the apostles instructed the Christians, beforehand, to flee to Pella. Jesus had warned them to "stand in holy places," and that ordinarily would be the temple. Only in this case the temple would have been the last place anyone would want to flee to. If the GB really is God's mouthpiece, they will be able to marshall their people and provide protection for them. But...if the GB members are not who they claim to be, then there are reasons to be concerned.

In the past, many who expected doomsday frittered their money away, decided not to go to college, foolishly bought boats and went on lavish vacations thinking the end was near. And it hasn't just been JWs. In fact, JWs, many of them, throw away opportunities to spend more time preaching. That's commendable if their motivations are pure, but if they do it for their own selfish reasons, not so much.

After the 1975 debacle, I'd think the leaders would pull back a little.

If you asked most people at a typical Kingdom Hall, would you expect them to predict the end in 30 years, 20 years, 10 years, 5 years or 2 years, which would most people choose, do you think. Has anyone heard any talk in their Kingdom Halls about time lines? And what type of credibility does the GB have? If one or two GB member got up and announced Armageddon would take place within the next two years, would this create a stir? Or have most members just had it with the predictions? I suspect many who would not openly criticize the GP may, instead, roll their eyes in private if they had been previously burned.

Thoughts??

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15

Florida teacher suspended over [JW] kids Pledge of Allegiance

by AndersonsInfo in

http://www.azcentral.com/news/free/20131106florida-teacher-suspended-over-kids-pledge-allegiance.html?odyssey=obnetwork.

associated presswed nov 6, 2013 3:34 pmspring hill, fla. a florida school district has suspended a teacher after requiring a fourth grade jehovahs witness to participate in the pledge of allegiance.. the tampa tribune (http://bit.ly/1arwmom) reports that the hernando county school board recently concluded an investigation.. the student, who is jehovahs witness and prohibited by the religion from worshiping objects, refused on religious grounds, the investigation found.. officials said teacher anne daigle-mcdonald twice placed the students hand over his heart when the class recited the pledge.. the student told mcdonald during the incident that jehovahs witnesses do not worship objects, and that he stood during the pledge of allegiance out of respect for the country, but was not permitted by his religion to place his hand over his heart, according to the investigation.. after the student informed mcdonald of this, mcdonald went to the front of the class and said, if you dont want to say the pledge, you still have to put your hand on your heart and if you dont want to do that, you should move out of the country, according to the report.. the report also shows mcdonald said something about there not being a religion that prohibits doing the pledge, according to the investigation.. the district says that mcdonald violated a host of state education rules, professional conduct principles and the students right to free speech and freedom of religion.

several other students in the class corroborated the allegations, according to the investigation.. mcdonald was removed from student contact, and placed on alternative assignment on sept. 12.. while speaking to administrators at the school on that date, mcdonald said she thought the religion applied only to holidays, but said she did not attempt to contact the students parents for clarification, according to the report.. the investigation showed that she also said she didnt think it was good practice to regularly place hands on students, and that she feels strongly as a citizen of the united states that one should show respect to the flag.. superintendent lori romano ordered mcdonald be suspended five days without pay, reported the incident to florida department of education and ordered mcdonald provide proof of completion of diversity training..

Cold Steel

The investigation showed that she also said she didn’t think it was good practice to regularly place hands on students, and that she feels strongly as a citizen of the United States that one should show respect to the flag.

Oh...well...as long as she feels strongly about it, I guess that's okay. Next week, I hear they're going to be making flaming pentagrams using lighter fluid.

15

Did Jesus abolish the temple priesthood at his death????

by Crazyguy in

if so or he did at anytime before or after his death please if you can provide scriptures.

i may need these for ammo when two elders come to my home this week.

thanks.

Cold Steel

Paul stated that the priesthood was "changed." If there were no sacrifices there would be no need for temple priests.

That said, the priesthood may have been changed so that the duties of priest were altered to a Christian angle, such as baptizing and preaching. Jesus was the consumate high priest after the order of Melchizedek, but the thing is, we simply don't know the Christian priesthood structure. They left no records. A lot of people think the Bible is a church handbook. It's not. It's woefully incomplete. It doesn't tell us anything about priesthood, church offices, what they do, what authority they possessed, how to do ordinances like baptism, how to confer the Holy Spirit on people and who can do it or how long office terms run. Are they temporary or permanent? Paying or non-paying? We know they had to be called and ordained, but that's it. We don't even know how to ordain or who may ordain, if anyone.

If you want to know about the priesthood and the temple, I recommend Dr. Margaret Barker, a gifted Methodist scholar who has written extensively on the topic. (See, for example, Great High Priest: The Temple Roots of Christian Liturgy.) She has a number of other books available through Amazon.

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25

What have Jehovah's Witnesses copied from the Mormons

by konceptual99 in

have jws pinched anything other than family worship from the mormons?.

could we see jws implement a type of meeting structure similar to the mormons to try and engage different ages in different ways?.

could we ever see a jw feel free to do anything like...?.

Cold Steel

That's what I normally do, Coma. The problem is when people make remarks attacking my religion. I have never started a thread that wasn't about Jehovah's Witnesses. But when someone challenges my beliefs (just as when someone challenges the beliefs of an atheist), then I have no problem about responding (just as an atheist would respond to an attack on his beliefs).

Ex-JWs are raw. Most are coming out of a long, hellish experience and they've been burned. Many, to avoid being burned again, become atheists or agnostics. They get testy and start tossing out the "C" word (cult). Then, because they read somewhere that Mormonism is a cult, they just repeat it. Fine. First century Christianity was a cult. But the word now carries a nasty connotation where the prophet, guru, haszrat or whoever is an authority-grubbing Cool Aid mixer.

So, fine. I don't think they can help themselves. The problem is, I've been here longer than most of them have and it's been only comparatively recently that I revealed my own religion. Thus, I'll keep outta Mormonism if people on the board stay away from it. But many people are curious about it. Others are willing to hear new ideas, and still others just want to rant and talk about how all of religion is a joke. As far as I'm concerned, if a board's going to be open and if people are searching, I'll defend the Bible, the prophets, Christianity and, if someone wants to take potshots, Mormonism. And if the atheists become beseiged unfairly, I'll speak up for them, too.

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